tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post9164710164037441860..comments2024-03-14T02:22:26.957+00:00Comments on Point of No Return: Jewish Refugees from Arab and Muslim Countries: 2,000 years of Algerian Jewry end in three monthsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-51285420780972515502016-09-01T00:01:51.033+01:002016-09-01T00:01:51.033+01:00Elyahu,
There is a whole interview of Ben Bella in...Elyahu,<br />There is a whole interview of Ben Bella in French on Islam on line. In it there is a chapter on the question. There he says more or less what you're looking for. It's long but it makes for a fascinating reading.Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-20192100361783840492016-08-23T00:25:01.088+01:002016-08-23T00:25:01.088+01:00by the way, Simon Malley's son, Rob Malley, is...by the way, Simon Malley's son, Rob Malley, is/was a high official in the US State Dept working on the Israel issue and against Israel of course. His father was a communist and he still retains the Communist anti-Jewish perspective. But now he is openly siding with the camp of the "American imperialists," who were once very much loathed and vilified by all true blue Communists. <br /><br />Sylvia, as to Ben Bella, can you direct me to any one source, whether French, English, Hebrew, Spanish that presents quotes from Ben Bella on the Jewish and Israeli issues.Eliyahu m'Tsiyonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07973268399414290195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-8839871560543719962016-08-22T13:07:46.092+01:002016-08-22T13:07:46.092+01:00Elyahu
Ben Bella had many such quotes about destr...Elyahu<br /><br />Ben Bella had many such quotes about destroying Israel. <br /><br />The irony is that he received invaluable help from Jews such as Henri Curiel and Simon Malley.<br /><br />A little known fact about Ben Bella that could shed light on his turning Algerian Jews to outsiders as well as on the wording of the article of the code I've quoted above, is that himself was not Algerian "de souche": himself was born in Algeria but both his parents were Moroccans who emigrated to Algeria from the Moroccan interior.Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-19269629593427282902016-08-22T12:39:38.116+01:002016-08-22T12:39:38.116+01:00I agree with you that it is most irritating that p...I agree with you that it is most irritating that people like Behar are peddling his false political narrative. Perhaps you should write a corrective article for Haaretz, Sylvia! bataweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15829104245735619972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-46874263631534928062016-08-22T12:21:10.962+01:002016-08-22T12:21:10.962+01:00Thanks Bataween. What I would like to see is a sit...Thanks Bataween. What I would like to see is a site that would debate to the end issue by issue in long form. Posts with appended short comments never give the whole picture unless of course they are presenting facts. <br /><br />More importantly, given the state of knowledge about North African Jewry, I think it would be helpful to deal exclusively and intensively with that topic. Many events, much material have been deleted either for ideological reasons, or as a result of generalisation in keeping with the mistaken notion of ONE "Mizrahi heritage", or appropriated out of pure malice. Ignorance of the other and unbridled narcissism might at times play a role.<br /><br />If we consider the topic you just posted, the issue has been relaunched lately by one of usual suspects on the Hebrew Haoketz, Behar. Here is someone who is three quarters ashkenazi, one quarter Iraqi twice removed, born in Ramat Gan who is coming to tell us who we really are, that we were wrong all of our lives, total idiots who don't even what is their identity. Enough. That must be put to rest once and for all.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-39222410975464864392016-08-21T23:32:51.074+01:002016-08-21T23:32:51.074+01:00Let's remember something about the Algerian Wa...Let's remember something about the Algerian War and the aftermath that can be applied in many other places.<br /><br />Around 1960, the Algerian struggle against France was considered the quintessence of progressive struggle. The FLN's victory would bring progress, a new and better society, equality and women's rights, so forth and so on, and inspire true revolutions throughout the world, not just the Third World, le Tiers Monde. A New Socialist Third World Man would emerge. <br />Well, we now know what did in fact emerge and it was not so pretty. And it did not take long. We don't have to wait till we come to the 1990s to see the mass slaughter that Algerian Muslim can inflict on each other. <br /><br />Before, the French army pulled out, progressives throughout the world were assured that the new state would not be a state of Islamic law and Muslim bigotry, etc.<br /><br />Be that as it may, maybe somebody can help me locate a quote from Ben Bella. After he had been out of office for years, he addressed the issue of Israel. He said something like this: If Islam cannot destroy Israel [OR rid itself of Israel], that will mean that Islam will collapse on its own. Islam cannot last if Israel endures. If so, Islam will implode.<br /><br />I can't remember his words, although I probably read the statement in French. It seems that what Ben Bella said indicates a Muslim phobia about Israel's very existence putting the validity of Islam into question.<br />Eliyahu m'Tsiyonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07973268399414290195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-16005223951705002372016-08-21T07:19:38.476+01:002016-08-21T07:19:38.476+01:00Thank you both for a most interesting discussion. ...Thank you both for a most interesting discussion. if you would like to research this question further, PoNR would be very happy to post your findings.bataweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15829104245735619972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-65677003109627656262016-08-21T00:19:35.936+01:002016-08-21T00:19:35.936+01:00I looked at the list.
Curiel was indeed Egyptian ...I looked at the list.<br /><br />Curiel was indeed Egyptian but he dabbed in practically every conflict including the Algerian one and even did time for that.<br /><br />Henri Alleg is another non-Algerian Jew (Ashkenazi). He was heavily interviewed a few years ago when the question of torture by waterboarding came up in the US media. He experienced it first hand in Algeria and even wrote a book about it.<br /><br />There were Jewish women who reintegrated Algerian citizenship without problems based on another article of the code since they were married to Muslims.<br /><br />In fact a woman who was also tortured but not on that list is Lisette Timsit who was married to and later divorced the well known author Kateb Yacine (Nadjma).<br /><br />Regarding Audin who now has a statue I think in Algiers his family maintained they were Christians. Maybe. But in my opinion the name nonetheless means "Jews/Judeans" in Berber (Ouday,Auday-Oudeen, Audin).<br /><br /><br />There were also liberal Jews who didn't engage in violence but militated against colonialism headed by a known Jewish Algerian philosopher whose name escapes me at the moment.<br /><br />This is well worth further discussion --what made them...but in a more formal setting and in a purely scholarly spirit. If you know of such internet venue, let me know.<br /><br />For Daniel Timsit he was perhaps the most puzzling. I have a whole draft for an article about him in some drawer.<br />The more I think about it, the more it appears to me that understanding the phenomenon would shed light on many behaviors in our era.<br /><br /><br />Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-7602617458731141742016-08-20T23:00:01.914+01:002016-08-20T23:00:01.914+01:00In 2013, in one Zlabia forum there was a discussio...In 2013, in one Zlabia forum there was a discussion about the Jews who fought in the ranks of the FLN (see the first entry of the link below). <br /><br />http://zlabia.com/forum/read.php?34,18173<br /><br />I cannot attest to the accuracy of the list. I know for sure that Henri Curiel is not associated with Algeria but with Egypt during the years leading to the military coup against King Farouk (see 1984 Gilles Perrault's book "Un Homme Apart" - A book entirely about Henri Curiel). Curiel was a communist third world advocate. He may have helped the FNL. <br /><br />I was not surprised at all about those who wanted to join the armed struggle. Similar breaks occurred in Eastern Europe during the socialist revolution between various Jewish social movements. Some Jewish Algerian activists received death sentences. Again, the problem is that these Jews were never acknowledged as having participated in the armed struggle, let alone suggesting that there were in the upper echelon. Simply put, there were not allowed to be in the so-called "party" or being a card carrying members. In a sense, the FLN demands for the Jewish community to denounced French Colonialism required a total break from the French culture, and the total obedience to the dictates of the Stalinist style control. The FLN assassinated in France and in Algeria all those who did not join ranks to its ideology, this includes ALL Arab MNA party syndicalists fighting for the rights of workers in France and for a future democratic Algeria. The murders were brutal. The MNA was first party (social movement) for political equality of all Algerians, the FLN was created a bit later. <br /><br />How can Jews (with any political persuasion, that's for or against the FNL) fare in this kind of atmosphere of thuggist revolution. They were from the start a fifth column that had to chance to survive, regardless of participating or not participating in this so-called armed struggle. <br /><br />Sammishnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-18100577315319491872016-08-20T20:49:12.994+01:002016-08-20T20:49:12.994+01:00That's not what I said.
As a general rule an...That's not what I said. <br /><br />As a general rule and based on the nationality code, indigenous Jews no matter who they were, could not be admitted as Algerians after the independence. The Jews who remained were French nationals. <br /><br />Among them there were Jews who had been members of the FLN (when it was a resistance movement) and who paid a high price for their terrorist activities. I know of one case where Algerian nationality was granted to such person, not as a birthright mind you, but by special decree thanks to friends in high place after investigation (of grandparents and witnesses determined he was not eligible not bei g a Muslim. But that was during the Ben Bella government, the first after the independence, when his former jail companipns were in power. <br />Subsequent governments to my knowledge have admitted no Jews as Algerian citizens, not even by special decree.Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-62782585124294056042016-08-20T10:56:30.655+01:002016-08-20T10:56:30.655+01:00Sylvia, do you have a source for your assertion th...Sylvia, do you have a source for your assertion that Jews were subsequently refused admission to the FLN? <br />bataweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15829104245735619972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-606314279050796702016-08-19T16:23:33.837+01:002016-08-19T16:23:33.837+01:00You nailed it. Indeed that article of the code als...You nailed it. Indeed that article of the code also favors the kouloughlis, who were Turkish citizens but lived in Algeria for many generations and were Muslims.<br /><br />As to the Jews who were members of the FLN, the first rulers admitted them but the subsequent governments did not. There have not been any Christians Algerians (or Moroccan for that matter) since the Almohads who also ruled over Algeria and part of Tunisia.<br /><br />Elyahu os right to make a parallel with Palestinian citizenship since they were also ruled by the Ottomans and had the same type hierarchies- Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-47991988034407077282016-08-19T14:34:59.229+01:002016-08-19T14:34:59.229+01:00Sylvia,
I agree with you on the citizenship (Natio...Sylvia,<br />I agree with you on the citizenship (Nationality)legal issues, because you are bringing up the legal aspect of what is written and made formal. And certainly, the discriminatory flaw is there for all to see. What I was raising is the socio-cultural aspects of this idea of nationality (citizenship)among the Arab state and particularly Algeria.<br /><br />You see, laws are sometimes bended to benefit one group or to marginalize others depending of the power struggle on the time. In Arab countries, laws are not only bent all the times, there are at times, disregarded for cases that benefit one group. Your example of Bouteflika fits this. He passes the test of "jouir du status musulman" but fails the Algerian paternity. You see, it does not matter, Algerian officials can with a brush of a pen make anyone an Algerian citizen because it benefit them. Of course, Jews, after the independence have been denied the citizenship because of hatred and the perennial dhimi status, not because of the article code. The code was written only to exclude Jews, but exceptions are always made for those to join the ranks. Many Frenchmen stayed in Algeria and were given citizenship because they helped logically or materially with the armed struggle. I do not know ho many Jews were in this category.<br /><br />In sum, what I was trying to convey is that the idea of citizenship is meaningless to Arab states, because of undemocratic, rigid, authoritarian and exclusionary aspects of the culture. Yes, you can write all the laws you want, but in the end, they are not binding and can change swiftly, mostly to the detriment of groups (i.e., Jewish subjects) or to the benefits of others (i.e., anyone joining the majority mold). sammishnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-88625510685395543922016-08-18T23:22:33.927+01:002016-08-18T23:22:33.927+01:00Elyahu the hypocrisy doesn’t stop there the gas-ri...Elyahu the hypocrisy doesn’t stop there the gas-rich territory that is today Eastern Algeria ( Colomb Bechar, Tindouf, the Touat) was actually Moroccan territory occupied by force by Algeria. <br />The French discovered there rich deposits in 1952 and annexed it to Algeria. In 1963 Algeria supported by Cuba and Egypt went to war with Morocco over it.Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-87931026955550227482016-08-18T22:26:44.801+01:002016-08-18T22:26:44.801+01:00Sammish there are also the "kouloughlis"...Sammish there are also the "kouloughlis" who are the descendents of Turkish janissaries and local women. <br /><br />Bouteflika was born in Oujda Morocco when it was annexed to Algeria by the French. To me, Bouteflika resembles more Erdogan than any native Algerian. <br />Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-76758717966071673992016-08-18T22:18:04.439+01:002016-08-18T22:18:04.439+01:00Chapitre VI Article 32 du Code de la nationalité a...Chapitre VI Article 32 du Code de la nationalité algérienne <br /><br /><i>,Lorsque la nationalité algérienne est revendiquée à titre de nationalité d'origine, elle peut être prouvée par la filiation découlant de deux ascendants en ligne paternelle, nés en Algérie et y ayant joui du statut musulman</i>.<br /> <br />http://lexalgeria.free.fr/nationalite.htm<br /><br />When Algerian nationality is claimed on grounds of nationality of origin, it can be proven by filiation derived from two ascendents on the paternal line who have held Muslim status.<br /><br />There is no doubt that this article of the code was meant to oppose any claim to nationality by Jews. Who else was of Algerian origin who was not Muslim or Jewish?<br />Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-57626702619661810462016-08-18T15:21:29.563+01:002016-08-18T15:21:29.563+01:00Bataween,
Yes, I agree. Tribes with flags, guns an...Bataween,<br />Yes, I agree. Tribes with flags, guns and I may add "senseless bravado". :)Sammishnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-88338796303903823972016-08-18T15:12:56.490+01:002016-08-18T15:12:56.490+01:00To clarify my point about Algeria's law of cit...To clarify my point about Algeria's law of citizenship, citizenship is given to groups who are Muslims first, and also to others; but it means nothing. The concept of citizenship can only mean something if a county abides by some forms of democratic principles. That's why I brought forth the notion tribal affiliation. It does not mean that Algeria denies citizenship to the various different regional groups. It is only that citizenship is meaningless. Why have citizenship when you are second class citizen? or some laws are set against you to the utmost. I know there are different levels and degrees of separation. In Algeria (and in most other Arab/Muslim countries) these are invisible.Sammishnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-7125797401244640592016-08-18T15:08:06.398+01:002016-08-18T15:08:06.398+01:00How interesting, Sammish. What you say fits in wit...How interesting, Sammish. What you say fits in with the idea that Arab states are just 'tribes with flags'(and guns!). bataweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15829104245735619972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-74991583068912394102016-08-18T14:40:09.771+01:002016-08-18T14:40:09.771+01:00Laws or ideologies governing the citizenship are a...Laws or ideologies governing the citizenship are a bit complex when comparing countries. The case of France (under Vichy regime period)is a telling one. Vichy French racial laws, because they were rooted on religious and later on, framed on a pseudo-scientific racial categories,did not discriminate against French ethnic groups(to my knowledge)like "les Bretons, les Limousins, les Alscaciens, les Basques, les Provincials, etc..." [sorry, English doesn't translate]. In a sense, these groups all identified themselves as roman Catholics. And many were ardent anti-Semites. Only, some Huguenots stood against bigotry. <br /><br />The Algerian case was different. The laws of citizenship were primarily based on religious Islamic affiliation, but also on linguistic and regional (tribal affiliation). This aspect is often overlooked. The regional tribalism is extremely important. Those who are now in power (took over from the French) and killed all opponents, are all from the Eastern part of Algeria (Chaoui region). The Algerian revolution was so brutal in terms of liquidation of all those who did not join the ranks of the National Liberation Front(FLN). The Chaoui dominate the Army, hate the Berbers and all other regional groups, specially those of Algerois (Central Algeria) and the Oranais (Western Algeria). <br /><br />Even under the mantle of Islamic homogeneity, the tribalism brews under in extreme tension and can spur extreme level of violence and outright extermination. One wonders why Arab countries can never be democratic. The case of Algeria is telling one. Sammishnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-60209715875248025882016-08-17T22:46:45.659+01:002016-08-17T22:46:45.659+01:00Sylvia makes an important point that is much too l...Sylvia makes an important point that is much too little known, even to academics. But then many academics nowadays are like a chorus of clowns. Especially in the USA. <br /><br />Now, what may be slightly better known today is that all Arab states but Lebanon declare themselves Muslim states in one way or another. And then, the would be additional Arab state, "palestine," has a draft constitution that also declares Islam the state religion. And few if any in the international community criticize Mahmud Abbas and his Palestine Authority for having such a constitution. Furthermore, as far as I know, the laws for citizenship in the would be state of "palestine" is much like what Sylvia describes for Algeria. Earlier PLO documents going back many years definitely stipulated similar principles for "palestinian" citizenship as Algeria has.Eliyahu m'Tsiyonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07973268399414290195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-84627562433613414992016-08-16T23:19:26.864+01:002016-08-16T23:19:26.864+01:00Confirming your first point, Sylvia: http://jewish...Confirming your first point, Sylvia: http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/more-about-non-french-jews-of-southern.htmlbataweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15829104245735619972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-64528207117904533932016-08-16T23:04:55.018+01:002016-08-16T23:04:55.018+01:00Another point: only Muslims whose grandfather was ...Another point: only Muslims whose grandfather was a Muslim may acquire Algerian nationality. The leaders of the revolution seem to have been strongly influenced by Vichy racial laws to come up with that one.Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-89443616304885177332016-08-16T22:48:51.660+01:002016-08-16T22:48:51.660+01:00Decret Cremieux granted French citizenship only to...Decret Cremieux granted French citizenship only to those Jews who lived in the three departments under French control in 1870, Algiers Oran and Constantine. Jews in the South were refused French nationality until the 1960s, on the eve of Algerian independence when there was barely time to file the paperwork. Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-35125796961404512362016-08-16T15:41:29.480+01:002016-08-16T15:41:29.480+01:00Algeria has long lost its beauty and soul, maybe b...Algeria has long lost its beauty and soul, maybe because of the exodus of Jews, but it is also the inability of rulers and the ruled to create a society that is worth its name. Another failed state ruled by a military junta. The majority of Algerians prefer to leave for Europe. The political repression is the name of the game for anyone who challenges the status quo. The irony is that the country elites and the masses chased away everyone that does not prescribe to their culture and Islamic ideology. <br /><br />Self-inflicted disaster. I think it is a curse. <br /><br />Sammishnoreply@blogger.com