tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post1202074779940092456..comments2024-03-29T11:39:42.348+00:00Comments on Point of No Return: Jewish Refugees from Arab and Muslim Countries: The curious case of the Moroccan MarranosUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-24526968534984139962014-10-21T20:42:57.783+01:002014-10-21T20:42:57.783+01:00Thank you, Professor Fenton.
Beldiyyin as the equ...Thank you, Professor Fenton.<br /><br />Beldiyyin as the equivalent of Toshavim would make sense and as "indigenes" or "the locals" Jews would certainly be meant to be pejorative.Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-43607634308648200892014-10-21T20:28:12.762+01:002014-10-21T20:28:12.762+01:00I did not say that beldiyeen refers to converts fr...I did not say that beldiyeen refers to converts from Muslim Spain but is a Moroccan phenomenon. Personally I think it translates the Hebrew Toshabim (indigenous Jews as opposed to the Megorashim, Spanish exiles) and was used by the latter as a derogatory term. Indeed, among the beldi family names not one Sefaradi name is to be found ; the Sefaradim had left Spain in order to avoid conversion to Christianity and they were therefore unlikely to convert to Islam! Paul Fentonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-51980533391691767242014-10-21T20:19:31.208+01:002014-10-21T20:19:31.208+01:00Professor Fenton probably used the forced conversi...Professor Fenton probably used the forced conversions under the Almohads as means of introduction, or as part of a survey of such.<br /><br />As to Maimonides, no, he didn't go into a mosque and he didn't attend the Qarawwin, as some people asserted.<br /> <br />When Maimonides arrived in the area, the Almohads had already passed thrugh and imposed their ideology - and their language, in the mosque. And I have seen no indication that Maimonides spoke Berber.<br /><br />Further, Maimonides himself described how he spent hose wandering years in the Prologue to the Epistle to the Jews of Yemen while in Egypt:<br /><br />"We labored and had no rest. How could we study the law when we were being exiled from city to city, and from country to country? I purdsued the reapers in their paths and gathered ears of grain, both the rank and the full ones, as well as the withered and the thin ones. Only recently have I found a home."<br /><br />At most, he dressed like all Andalusian refugees in Morocco.<br /><br />As to the etymology of beldiyyin, it would be interesting to know whether they gave themselves that name ot other Jews or the Muslims. In any case, whatever it means, it is nothing like marranos (which means swine).Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-39613175640881810532014-10-21T17:34:27.717+01:002014-10-21T17:34:27.717+01:00Dear Sylvia, it's always nice to get your info...Dear Sylvia, it's always nice to get your informed opinion on this site. I've changed the spelling of bilade'en to the one you suggest. Professor Fenton said the word came from 'biladi' meaning 'country'.<br />I think the professor chose to use the word Marranos in his title because most people know the word as a convenient and well-known shorthand for 'secret Jew'even though converts to Islam were not strictly comparable. Maimonides did not view converts to Islam as having committed 'avoda zara'(one of the three exceptions mentioned above) for exactly the reasons you describe - Islam does not require the same 'idolatrous' practices as Christianity. What you say about Maimonides never having converted is interesting. Even if he may have outwardly displayed some signs (visiting a mosque in Fez?) he most definitely practised as a Jew later on. The impression given by Prof Fenton is that the beldiyeen converted during the Almohad era but thank you for asserting that the history is a lot more complex than he might have been able to convey in an hour's lecture. bataweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15829104245735619972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-7023279817997649492014-10-21T15:34:36.157+01:002014-10-21T15:34:36.157+01:00"the crypto-Jews (also known as biladee’en)&q..."the crypto-Jews (also known as biladee’en)"<br /><br />The correct name is "beldiyyin", I would speculate that has the same root as "mbelled" which means "one who has acculturated to the city's ways/customs, etc". But that's my personal interpretation I don't know if it is correct.<br /><br />The impression I get from the article is that it is saying that the beldiyyin converted during the Almohads period. <br />Their conversion is more recent, according to one view, it dates from the 15th century and is linked to the pogroms that led to the establishment of the first Mellah in 1438. This is to say they didn't come from Spain.<br />They refused to move to the Mellah with the other Jews and remained in the Medina with Muslims. In any case, all the Jews at the Mellah were massacred along with the last Merinid sultan in 1465. But they are Muslims who produced many Islamic scholars and personalities and married with families of shorfa, of royal stock.<br />Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-42130259203764044782014-10-21T14:47:21.586+01:002014-10-21T14:47:21.586+01:00“The most famous Jewish convert to Islam was Maimo...<br />“The most famous Jewish convert to Islam was Maimonides himself.” <br /><br />Maimonides has never converted to Islam, not even outwardly. Generations upon generations of Ashkenazi scholars and few Sephardim have labored to find proof of Maimonides supposed apostasy. To no avail. Todate, there is not a shred of substantiated evidence to support that assumption. Those who say so usually base it on two shaky items:<br /><br />1.They often quote selectively a sentence from Iggeret haShmad (written as responsa for Jews of those regions threatened with forced conversions),where Maimonides has said “recognize and do not let yourself be killed”, while at the same time ignoring what follows, what Maimonides says he would do if himself were in that situation: <b>“the advice to myself and the opinion I want to give myself, my friends, and those asking for advice, is to leave those places and go where they can practice their religion without constraint nor fear.</b>” Which he did in 1165.<br /><br />The second item is from an Oriental Arab author, Al Qitbi, who has never lived in the Maghreb and who is the one who mentions that Maimonides was accused of having converted to Islam. But in his short page on the subject there are many discrepancies, one of them that he converted in Andalusia and left from there straight to Egypt, when Maimonides is supposed to have converted in Fes.<br />Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-49763507505904042132014-10-21T14:37:07.750+01:002014-10-21T14:37:07.750+01:00"Marranos" is distinctive of Jewish conv...<br />"Marranos" is distinctive of Jewish converts in Christendom, and is inappropriate for Jews in Islamdom. Why? Because in Christianity conversion required “actions”, such as kneeling before a statue (avoda zarah) baptism eating pork openly or pretending to do so, so as to silence any possible accusations, etc. in which case the convert would have a hard time telling his fellow Jews that he didn’t violate any Jewish law.<br />. <br />This is different however with regard to outward conversions in Islam where no “actions” that violate Judaism but only words are expected. There are no images and statues in a mosque. Muslims don’t eat pork. In fact, those people could enter a mosque and say the Shmone Esreh without anyone knowing the difference. <br /><br />The terms "Marranos" or "Marranisme" blur the difference and could give the impression that what Maimonides said goes also for Anusim in Christendom. It doesn’t.<br /><br />Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-2284696260779805672014-10-21T13:20:24.769+01:002014-10-21T13:20:24.769+01:00Anon, Morocco was not part of the Ottoman Empire. ...Anon, Morocco was not part of the Ottoman Empire. As far as I know, conditions were worse for Jews in Morocco than in the Ottoman Empire, which included Algeria up to 1830, Egypt, Tunisia, Libya and Middle Eastern and Eastern European lands.Eliyahu m'Tsiyonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07973268399414290195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-82452677422986095552014-10-21T12:30:59.299+01:002014-10-21T12:30:59.299+01:00Nobody should be surprise by this, not in Morocco,...Nobody should be surprise by this, not in Morocco, or anywhere in the region, where from time to time, the pressures to convert or leave the Ottoman Empire were pretty rife.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com