tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post7136505668832160509..comments2024-03-29T11:39:42.348+00:00Comments on Point of No Return: Jewish Refugees from Arab and Muslim Countries: Egyptians celebrate Communist Jewish convertUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-9713582529856808192010-10-05T14:04:01.133+01:002010-10-05T14:04:01.133+01:00Eliahu
I agree with you that there are many Karai...Eliahu<br /><br />I agree with you that there are many Karaites who are fiercely Zionists. I've met some of them myself both online and in person here in Israel. See my answer to Bataween on the subject.<br /><br />Regarding the Lavon affair, I still can't comprehend such level of stupidity. Unfortunately stupidity of this type is still with us.Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-43786644776415436492010-10-05T13:53:46.121+01:002010-10-05T13:53:46.121+01:00Bataween
Of course Karaites who have a sane appre...Bataween <br />Of course Karaites who have a sane appreciation of what it means to them to have a democratic Jewish State and who remember what it's like to be a second class citizen elsewhere are going to be committed Zionists. As to those who chose to remember the intra-Jewish wars (Saadia's polemics, Spain, the endless disputes for leadership in the Egyptian community) MOST are not Zionists and I wouldn't hold it against them if they were not. <br /><br />As I said, in Egypt, Karaites have been considered by the Egyptian authorities as Jews and integral part of the Jewish community.<br />Just like in Ottoman Palestine, the Samaritans were defined as Jews by Muslims.<br />So there is little surprise that they would call them Zionists, whether they are or not, to the Egyptiasns Jew and Zionist being one and the same.<br />As to why his grandaughter is still called Jewish, this has more to do with their perception of "who is a Moslem" and consequently when is a new Moslem a full-fledged Egyptian national. <br />The Algerian Nationality Act of 1963 for example, which was the instrument for the expulsion of the Jews of Algeria, states that an Algerian is someone whose father and grandfather were Muslims.<br /><br />As to the Palestinian Christians, I didn't say that they have become Zionists :). They certainly continue to support the Palestinian cause, but here they have been practically invisible since 2002, when the PLO Parliament introduced a draft legislation in its Constitution stating that the future Palestinian State will be Muslim and regulated by Sharia.Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-64776645033808050502010-10-05T09:42:40.950+01:002010-10-05T09:42:40.950+01:00there were some Karaites who were Zionists. If you...there were some Karaites who were Zionists. If you recall the Lavon Affair, several Egyptian Zionists planted small fire bombs in public places like the USIA library in Cairo. One of them was a Karaite.<br /><br />As to the Lavon Affair, I'm not going to get into it except to say that it was unwise and caused internal political problems in Israel.Eliyahu m'Tsiyonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07973268399414290195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-29230375053461240092010-10-05T09:29:57.441+01:002010-10-05T09:29:57.441+01:00You're right, Sylvia - You didn't need to ...You're right, Sylvia - You didn't need to convert out of conviction (Leyla Murad, Omar Sharif, Ahmed Soussa in Iraq are other examples) but there was this undeniable and irresistible social pressure to do so. Even the Christian Michel Aflak did so, and this was in the heyday of the Arab nationalist movement he had helped to spearhead. <br />Despite their differences with Rabbinic Judaism, Karaites were still stigmatised as Zionists - there was no escape. And as we can seen from this example, even Basma is tarred with the Jewish brush, two generations removed. <br />The Christians have indeed been marginalised in Arab politics to the point of invisibility. However I did hear Manuel Hassassian, the PA ambassador to the UK at a debate the other day, and he sounded far more extreme and hostile to Israel than even Mustafa Barghouti, also a participant.bataweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15829104245735619972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-63519306273424150092010-10-05T00:00:32.467+01:002010-10-05T00:00:32.467+01:00Since you mention the Christians, that's what ...Since you mention the Christians, that's what they are experiencing in their Arab countries at the moment. They have constructed "Arabness" a secular, artificial identity that provided them (they thought) equal status with Muslims - just like Darwish and other Jews' communism.<br /><br />There were mmany Palestinian Arab Christians too, but since Arafat islamized the conflict (Intifadat Al-Quds) - you see less and less of them. They are slowly disappearing from the region, and from the picture. They outgrew their usefulness. <br />Christians are also harassed by Muslims in villages inside Israel, but they can't speak out - that would be betraying "the cause".<br /><br />And look at the Copts in Egypt. Yesterday proud "Arabs", they are toiday massacred and oppressed.Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-73113919716477852702010-10-04T23:21:43.441+01:002010-10-04T23:21:43.441+01:00Most people don't convert to Islam because of ...Most people don't convert to Islam because of conviction. It could be that he married a Moslem, it could be that he wanted to be remembered in the Egyptian history books. <br />Jews don't have the right to write national history in Muslim countries, much less make it.<br />You have the case more recently of Uri Davis, an anti-Zionist born in Jerusalem who co-founded ICAHD with Jeff Halper. He married his Moslem handler and converted - in his words - to "nominal Islam". He is now actively preaching the one-state solution. One thing flows logically from the other.<br /><br />It was probably much easier in the case of Darwish, since Karaites pray the same way Muslims do. But regardless, Karaites would have the same problem with Zionism. Many Karaite groups don't consider themselves Jewish. There is a history of antagonism between the two groups (like between shi'as and sunni). They have their own separate Bet Din in Israel (can't be married at the Rabbinate). He, at least, had some reasons not to be Zionist. But one thing he has in common with all the other Jews in other Muslim countries who fought in the wars of independence, he gets the short stick any way he turns.Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-27820250558683596132010-10-04T21:24:28.527+01:002010-10-04T21:24:28.527+01:00I don't doubt that Communism was attractive to...I don't doubt that Communism was attractive to Jews and Christians who wanted to escape dhimmi status - after all the ideology stands for the Brotherhood of Man. But to convert to Islam seems a bridge too far.... <br />There must have been a few secular liberals knocking around in Egypt at the time - why couldn't he be one of those?bataweenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15829104245735619972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-22828372250526288572010-10-04T20:49:32.836+01:002010-10-04T20:49:32.836+01:00And in the name of what status could a Jew fight f...And in the name of what status could a Jew fight for his Arab/Muslim country, other than as communist or convert? Wouldn't that be rather irrational for a Jew to fight in order to reestablish inequality between Muslims and non-Muslims, and risk his life inorder to regain his inferior status as dhimmi?Sylvianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12677825.post-28723698079531565842010-10-04T12:36:36.962+01:002010-10-04T12:36:36.962+01:00The Communists in Egypt were against Zionism, whic...The Communists in Egypt were against Zionism, which Darwish called "racist", according to a certain Fahmy quoted in the article. Here is the reality of Egypt today, religiously bigoted, led by a relatively "secular" crook who is preferable to the Muslim Brotherhood, now favored by some half-insane policy experts in Washington and London. Darwish became a Muslim. I suppose this is what he can take pride in as a Muslim, unless the conversion was a cynical political maneuver. If he was an atheist Communist, could he take pride in the events described at the link?<br /><br />http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2010/10/more-on-apartheid-arab-muslim-religious.htmlEliyahu m'Tsiyonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07973268399414290195noreply@blogger.com